m20 Odd Duck - Swapping Out Spells

[sycarion]

Inspired by this post - http://aeonsnaugauries.blogspot.com/2010/04/swapping-out-spells.html

I thought about modeling this in M20. (I call it Odd Duck because the goal is to be different without changing the mechanics.)

I had never heard of The Fantasy Trip until this post.

I also found this link, a d20 form of tft: http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcsfz7gv_22xmrn2sgg

So I am looking to generate an alternate spell list for spell casters from these sources with a few additions/deletions of my own.

The changes thus far:

• Added Charisma stat (CHA)
• Spell levels range from 0 to 11.
• Wizards (what I call Mages) can create a personal magic item called a Wizard's Staff which is the only weapon that they can use.
• Added Expert Rules that allow hp expenditure to extend, empower, and/or widen a spell.

Spell Lists thus far:

Level 0 Spells

Blur -- Blur makes it harder for others to see, hear, smell, etc. the target of the spell. All attacks against the target are at a -4 penalty; any Perception Checks against the target of the spell are at -4 as well.

Detect Magic -- Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft. for up to 1 min./level or until concentration ends..

Drop Weapon -- The target drops whatever he is carrying in one hand.  Does not affect rings, amulets, or other jewelry, only things held in the hand.  Does not affect objects with Immunity to this spell.

Silent Image -- Creates minor illusion of your design.

Light -- Light causes a small object (fist sized or smaller) to glow, casting approximately as much light as a torch.  The caster can choose the color.  The caster may, if he wishes, end the spell before its duration ends (1 day), but must cast the spell again for more light.

Magic Fist -- Magic Fist creates a telekinetic fist in the air that can only be used to attack opponents. The fist does 1d6 damage and lasts for one round per level.

Slow Movement -- Slow Movement halves a target's Movement for 2 rounds/level. The effects of multiple Slow Movement spells do not stack.

Staff -- The Staff spell turns any piece of wood into a Wizard's Staff.

Level 1 Spells

Aid -- Aid adds 2 to the target's STR, DEX, MIND or CHA for 10 min/level. The spell does not provide bonus hit points.

Any thoughts so far?

[Atmo]

Good pick. Maybe you can do something more expanded of it.

[Empty]

Sound interesting, and some nifty spells, too.

Don't see Drop Weapon being particularly useful, though, unless you were really low on HP :/

[Path]

Awesome idea! TFT seems like a very cool source of inspiration for M20.

Sound interesting, and some nifty spells, too.

Don't see Drop Weapon being particularly useful, though, unless you were really low on HP :/

I would GLADLY AND REPEATEDLY use an incredibly annoying spell that would disarm any weapon wielding enemy allow the fighter to increase his smashy quota without exposing himself to enemy attacks. And it costs only ONE hp/turn.

Magic fist is kinda overpowered: 0 level spell that has more punch than magic missile until level 3, when MM gets stronger. I would also make Slow movement a higher level spell --didn't the 2e Slow spell do pretty much the same thing? it was a 3^rd level spell.

I would think very carefully about letting magi store spells. If they are able to recover HPs after storing it, the system will be horribly abusable. OTOH, if HPs were "locked" until the spells were released, then there isn't really a point to use a staff. How do you intend to make it work?

[copycat042]

I would think very carefully about letting magi store spells. If they are able to recover HPs after storing it, the system will be horribly abusable. OTOH, if HPs were "locked" until the spells were released, then there isn't really a point to use a staff. How do you intend to make it work?

someone suggested that they could store HP in a staff or wand only to use in spells.

[SethDrebitko]

I think storing hp would be a valid magical item, I would be careful how much they store though.

[ravensron]

The Fantasy Trip was invented by Steve Jackson, when he worked for Metagaming.  While it had some mechanical glitches because of it starting out as a wargame, it was extraordinarily enjoyable and provided no end of inspiration for making D&D more interesting and enjoyable; probably 1/3 of my house rules years ago for D&D were adapted from it.  The spell system (which included using a form of hit points to power spells, just as M20 does) was far more sensible (if that word can apply to made-up magic) and most particularly the rules for illusions and creations.  The Fantasy Trip in its final form was too little too late to compete with D&D or other similar rpgs, Steve Jackson eventually created GURPS  as a more complete, more role-playing-oriented, game.  But the original still has a fan following.

[sycarion]

Awesome idea! TFT seems like a very cool source of inspiration for M20.

Sound interesting, and some nifty spells, too.

Don't see Drop Weapon being particularly useful, though, unless you were really low on HP :/

I would GLADLY AND REPEATEDLY use an incredibly annoying spell that would disarm any weapon wielding enemy allow the fighter to increase his smashy quota without exposing himself to enemy attacks. And it costs only ONE hp/turn.

Magic fist is kinda overpowered: 0 level spell that has more punch than magic missile until level 3, when MM gets stronger. I would also make Slow movement a higher level spell --didn't the 2e Slow spell do pretty much the same thing? it was a 3^rd level spell.

I would think very carefully about letting magi store spells. If they are able to recover HPs after storing it, the system will be horribly abusable. OTOH, if HPs were "locked" until the spells were released, then there isn't really a point to use a staff. How do you intend to make it work?

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I appreciate it. Feel free to pitch in if you like. About the only thing I want to say upfront, though, is that I don't want to add in a bunch of d20 spells unless there is a tft equivalent. For example, Silent Image is very similar to a 1st level Illusion spell from the Expert rules.

Drop Weapon is devious, especially at higher levels. Say you have a 10th level fighter getting +15/+10/+5/0 to attck per round (just example numbers, I didn't compute them.) A dropped weapon would eliminate all of them. Maybe a phys+DEX roll can half the effect? Act as a saving throw? What ideas come to mind when GMing this spell?

Magic Fist starts out more powerful than MM, that is true. Keeping in mind that this is a replacement, I think the 1d6 damage with fewer numbers of attacks balance out. I dunno, I'm open to changing it. Part of the exercise to me is using the equivalent TFT IQ levels if possible. After all, I'm already adding two levels. One way to balance it may be to eliminate 0 level spells. This way, magic fist cost 3hp instead of 1hp. It also prevents someone from taking Magic Fist as a specialized spell and casting it at will.

Come to think of it, I think I'll eliminate 0 level spells to prevent specialization in any of the 0 level spells. By eliminate, I mean make the current 0 level spells into first level spells. Shift the 1 level spells to 2nd level spells, etc. As funny as it is, I would hate someone having Drop Weapon as a free spell. (UGH) It may also address the power of these spells and provide some balance to other spells like the Slow Movement spell.

As far as storing spells or hp in the staff, I'm not sure that I'm hip to it. I missed that part of the tft rules that talks about it. It may become too complicated to manage storing hp or spells, justifying when and where those spells were stored, discussions about events that occurred out of game time, etc. I agree that it makes a good magic item, I'm just not sure that a first level wizard should start out with one automatically and I'm not sure how to fairly GM such an item. If someone can think of a really simple way to manage it, let's try it out and see if it works well.

One other completely random idea. I love fiddly tables, though I probably won't include them in the rules. Having spell levels 1-12 allows me to use the d12 for random spells effects for the purposes of maybe generating random magic item, random spell books, or something similar.

@Atmo I'm looking to expand it and post about it here before posting a pdf. Love to see what others come up with.

[Path]

One way to balance it may be to eliminate 0 level spells. This way, magic fist cost 3hp instead of 1hp. It also prevents someone from taking Magic Fist as a specialized spell and casting it at will.

Come to think of it, I think I'll eliminate 0 level spells to prevent specialization in any of the 0 level spells. By eliminate, I mean make the current 0 level spells into first level spells. Shift the 1 level spells to 2nd level spells, etc. As funny as it is, I would hate someone having Drop Weapon as a free spell. (UGH) It may also address the power of these spells and provide some balance to other spells like the Slow Movement spell.

1.- You can't specialize on a 0 level spell.
2.- Yes, some of these are way stronger that a 0 level spell should be.

I just remembered that, in 2e, spells related to provoking fear or loss of control (provoke, symbol, etc) had specific wording regarding if the spell forced people to drop what they were holding. That made me realize the power of disarming somebody just with a spell. i think that the first spell that made people drop things was Fear, a 3^rd level spell.

If both Slow Movement and Drop Weapon mimic 3rd level effects, perhaps you should just make them level 3 and see how they look among the rest of the spells.

[sycarion]

In talking with folks familiar with TFT, I found that 1 Turn = 5 seconds. Not knowing that, I made some of the durations arbitrary. So, I'm going to fix the level 1 spells and post them with the level 2s.

First, I'm going to convert them all as is, and then think about re-leveling them.

I looked up Slow in my 2e stuff. Slow affects 24 people. The Slow movement spell in Odd Duck, I see as affecting 1 target. Who know, maybe it will be ramped up and changed to 3rd level. We'll see. I'm certain that many of the spells are definitely unbalanced.

More in a bit...