Opinions needed on classes.

[SethDrebitko]

While I have been play testing and tweaking my personal "official" m20 house ruled edition lately, I'd like to get some opinions on the current line up of base classes. The classes listed in bold will be included in the "basic" booklet which contains a nearly purist m20 without all the fiddly bits.

Adventurer – Adventurers are hardened travellers who have mastered no one task but gained great knowledge in many.
Starts with 100 gp
Adventurer may wear light armour
1d6 HP per level
Adventurer may choose 2 skills to receive +3 in: 1 must be knowledge.
Add 1d6 to any skill, attack or damage roll; you must choose to roll the extra d6 before/after  rolling. You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 2 + your level + MIND bonus.

Berserker – Berserkers are those warriors whose reckless abandon proves most devastating as they savagely enter battle.
Starts with 150 gp.
Use light/medium shields and armour
1d8HP per level
They receive a +3 in their skill Physical
+10 movements.
The character may rage a number of non-consecutive rounds per day equal to their level + STR mod, and gets +1 STR and DEX mod per 3 levels, and 2 temporary HP per level. After the rage they are fatigued for a number of rounds equal to the amount of rounds they raged.
Berzerkers also receive a +1 bonus to all attack and damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 at Level 5 and every 5 levels thereafter, i.e. levels 10,15,20, etc.
You gain +1 action every 5th levels.

Cleric – Clerics are people dedicated to a cause or purpose and spend their lives spreading this ideal or living entirely for it.
Begins with 120gp
Clerics can wear light or medium armor
Gains 1d6 hit points per level.
They get +3 bonus to Communication Skill.
Pick 1 spell per level + CHA mod to cast at -1 less HP.
Turn Undead – Clerics may also “turn” or destroy the undead. The Difficulty Class (DC) is the current Hit Points (HP) of the undead. If a Turn Undead roll plus the Cleric’s Magic score beats the DC the undead flee from the caster. If the DC is exceeded by 10 or more the undead are destroyed. This can be used 2 + Level + Mind Modifier times a day.

Fighter – Fighters are masters of arms and martial abilities, usually of great strength.
Start with 150gp
Fighters can wear any kind of armor
Receive 1d8 hit points per level.
They receive a +3 bonus to the Physical Skill.
Fighters also receive a +1 bonus to all attack and damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 at Level 5 and every 5 levels thereafter, i.e. levels 10,15,20, etc.
You gain +1 action every 5th levels.
Challenge once per day +1 per 3 levels the character can challenge a foe. They lose -2 to ac against other enemies but deal their class level as extra damage to that enemy. This lasts until the combat ends or challenged foe dies.

Rogue – Rogues prefer a more subtle approach over strength using their quick wits and fast hands.
Starts with 100gp
Can wear light armor
Receives 1d6 hit points per level.
They receive a +3 bonus to the Subterfuge Skill.
Backstab – If a Rogue “sneaks” up on an opponent, or attacks an overwhelmed foe, they may add their Subterfuge Skill score to the damage.
Gets an additional +2 to checks involving disabling/enabling mechanical traps and levers: acts of diplomacy and negotiation: or stealth and poisoning. You must choose which category to get the bonus from.
Resilience: The rogue gains a pool of points equal to 1/3rd their level + DEX mod per day. For each point spent they negate 1 point of ability damage or re-roll failed saves.

Martial Artist - Martial Artists are those who have not specifically trained for military careers. Their mastery over martial arts does not just extend to their melee skills but also the spiritual essence they can conjure within themselves.
Starts with 75 gp.
Uses no armour and simple weapons.
1d8HP per level
They receive a +3 in their skill Physical
+10 movements every 3rd level.
When not wearing armour you gain 1/4th your level + MIND mod+ DEX mod to the base 10 AC.
Your unarmed attacks deal 1d8+STR+1/2 level in lethal damage.
Enemies do not get attacks of opportunity on your unarmed attacks.
You get a pool of Ki  points equal to 1/2 level + MIND mod. If you have at least 1 point in your pool your attacks count as +1 magical weapons. You may spend 1 point of Ki as a free action on the following:
One extra attack at highest BAB
+20 movement for a round.
+4 dodge AC

Sorcerer – Sorcerers have learned to absorb the energy around them and to release it as powerful spells.
Starts with 75 gp.
Sorcerers wear light armor but each casting has a 25% chance of failure and can use any weapon, and use simple weapons.
They receive a +3 bonus to the Knowledge.
Sorcerers cast spells from the arcane spell list.
Pick 1 spell per level + CHA mod to cast at -1 less HP.
Foci: at character creation decide an amount of HP per level, from 0-3, you will permanently sacrifice. You gain twice this amount as a daily separate pool of hit points to use for casting spells. If separated from your foci you may not use that pool.

I appreciate your feedback as always.

[morganm]

Overall they are pretty keen.  I like the diversity and options you are bringing to the table for players. 

Please don't take my comments below the wrong way... I'm pressed for time right now (doing this right before I leave for work!) so my comments are blunt. 



Adventurer –
"Adventurer may choose 2 skills to receive +3 in: 1 must be knowledge."
Why even say they get to choose 2?  Just say they get +3 to KNOW and one other skill.

Fighter -
"They lose -2 to ac against other enemies but deal their class level as extra damage to that enemy. "
I'm confused by this; please elaborate or clarify. 

Rogue -
"The rogue gains a pool of points equal to 1/3rd their level + DEX mod per day. "
Doing the math of "1/3rd LVL + DEX mod" are the types of formulas I despise in games... now I have to know, for this given circumstance, do I round up or down?  I'm not good at math to begin with so I'd have to write down the equation to figure it out... now I feel like I'm "book keeping". 

Martial Artist -
"When not wearing armour you gain 1/4th your level + MIND mod+ DEX mod to the base 10 AC."
Same as rogue...

Sorcerer -
Foci:  "If separated from your foci you may not use that pool."
You explained how it works but not what it is.  What is it?  How do I get separated from it? 


Overall -
What does this "+10 movement" mean? 
Some more organization here would go a long ways... things like bullets, indentations, colons, and consistency between your information blocks.  Boring typography stuff =P 
No bard?!  Or is that what "adventurer" is supposed to be? 

[SethDrebitko]

Thanks for the excellent feedback I'm at work now but when I get a chance I'll shoot a reply. Thanks again for the feedback.

[morganm]

My pleasure!  I know how hard it can be to get quality feedback. 

[SethDrebitko]

The movement is assuming things are like in m20 gold where there is movement. Posting this I'm seeing allot of the flaws and I think I'll fiddle around with them a bit.

[morganm]

Got a link to M20 Gold ? 

Thx!

[SethDrebitko]

http://www.forum.koboldenterprise.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=133

[weeot]

gimme some more time. im going through them with my unified math...

[weeot]

K. here we go. ill provide numerical point values in the left hand side and comment within the body of the text. havent figured out how to value 'movement' yet and didn't value gold. General disclaimer that there is some art in using these numbers. if you have a specific question let me know. It really helped me understand Unified Math more and some of its undeveloped fringes. I decided that trying to use the math just makes the process of balancing game features more reliable, if not more valid- so if you disagree with someone, it's easier to pinpoint WHY you disagree, more than who is right.

The numbers represent the value of each feature in terms of EL at class level 20. The original M20 Classes total Fighter-3.55, rogue 2.9, Magi 3.6, Cleric 4.35. So in original M20 a lv 20 Cleric is as powerful as a level 21 Rogue.

Does anyone use shields besides Berserker?

Adventurer – Adventurers are hardened travellers who have mastered no one task but gained great knowledge in many.
Starts with 100 gp
0.4   Adventurer may wear light armour
0.0   1d6 HP per level
0.6   Adventurer may choose 2 skills to receive +3 in: 1 must be knowledge.
1.6   Add 1d6 to any skill, attack or damage roll; you must choose to roll the extra d6 before/after  rolling. You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 2 + your level + MIND bonus.
Total: 2.6 At level 1 you'll be getting 5 of these, could you really use up many more?


Berserker – Berserkers are those warriors whose reckless abandon proves most devastating as they savagely enter battle.
Starts with 150 gp.
0.5   Use light/medium shields and armour
2.38  1d8HP per level
0.3   They receive a +3 in their skill Physical
?.??  +10 movements.
2.8   The character may rage a number of non-consecutive rounds per day equal to their level + STR mod, and gets +1 STR and DEX mod per 3 levels, and 2 temporary HP per level. After the rage they are fatigued for a number of rounds equal to the amount of rounds they raged.
2.0   Berzerkers also receive a +1 bonus to all attack and damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 at Level 5 and every 5 levels thereafter, i.e. levels 10,15,20, etc.
0.3   You gain +1 action every 5th levels.
Total: 8.28 +Movements. Movements plural? Define "fatigued". Being fatigued for a few rounds outside combat does not seem like a draw back. 4 rounds is 24 seconds of fatigued-ness. He sounds "winded." 


Cleric – Clerics are people dedicated to a cause or purpose and spend their lives spreading this ideal or living entirely for it.
Begins with 120gp
0.5   Clerics can wear light or medium armor
0.0   Gains 1d6 hit points per level.
0.3   They get +3 bonus to Communication Skill.
0.2   Pick 1 spell per level + CHA mod to cast at -1 less HP.
1.05  Turn Undead – Clerics may also “turn” or destroy the undead. The Difficulty Class (DC) is the current Hit Points (HP) of the undead. If a Turn Undead roll plus the Cleric’s Magic score beats the DC the undead flee from the caster. If the DC is exceeded by 10 or more the undead are destroyed. This can be used 2 + Level + Mind Modifier times a day.
Total: 2.05. Do they cast Divine Spells? Then 4.85.


Fighter – Fighters are masters of arms and martial abilities, usually of great strength.
Start with 150gp
0.75   Fighters can wear any kind of armor
2.38   Receive 1d8 hit points per level.
0.3   They receive a +3 bonus to the Physical Skill.
2.0   Fighters also receive a +1 bonus to all attack and damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 at Level 5 and every 5 levels thereafter, i.e. levels 10,15,20, etc.
0.3   You gain +1 action every 5th levels.
1.6   Challenge once per day +1 per 3 levels the character can challenge a foe. They lose -2 to ac against other enemies but deal their class level as extra damage to that enemy. This lasts until the combat ends or challenged foe dies.
Total: 7.33. Do they use shields and tower shields? Then 7.73. does the challenge work for ranged attacks? then... more.


Rogue – Rogues prefer a more subtle approach over strength using their quick wits and fast hands.
Starts with 100gp
0.4   Can wear light armor
0.0   Receives 1d6 hit points per level.
0.3   They receive a +3 bonus to the Subterfuge Skill.
2.1   Backstab – If a Rogue “sneaks” up on an opponent, or attacks an overwhelmed foe, they may add their Subterfuge Skill score to the damage.
0.1   Gets an additional +2 to checks involving disabling/enabling mechanical traps and levers: acts of diplomacy and negotiation: or stealth and poisoning. You must choose which category to get the bonus from.
?.??  Resilience: The rogue gains a pool of points equal to 1/3rd their level + DEX mod per day. For each point spent they negate 1 point of ability damage or re-roll failed saves.
Total: 2.9+ Resilience. A level 1 Rogue could re-roll 3 saves/day? I dont know how to value ability damage negation.


Martial Artist - Martial Artists are those who have not specifically trained for military careers. Their mastery over martial arts does not just extend to their melee skills but also the spiritual essence they can conjure within themselves.
Starts with 75 gp.
0.0   Uses no armour and simple weapons.
2.38  1d8HP per level
0.3   They receive a +3 in their skill Physical
?.??   +10 movements every 3rd level.
1.4   When not wearing armour you gain 1/4th your level + MIND mod+ DEX mod to the base 10 AC.
1.1   Your unarmed attacks deal 1d8+STR+1/2 level in lethal damage.
0.0   Enemies do not get attacks of opportunity on your unarmed attacks.
?.??   You get a pool of Ki  points equal to 1/2 level + MIND mod. If you have at least 1 point in your pool your attacks count as +1 magical weapons. You may spend 1 point of Ki as a free action on the following:
 One extra attack at highest BAB
+20 movement for a round.
+4 dodge AC
Total: 5.18 + Ki. Does the +4 dodge bonus last for one round? When do you declare it? If the AC lasts for one round the value would be 6.28 + movement.


Sorcerer – Sorcerers have learned to absorb the energy around them and to release it as powerful spells.
Starts with 75 gp.
0.3   Sorcerers wear light armor but each casting has a 25% chance of failure and can use any weapon, and use simple weapons.
0.3   They receive a +3 bonus to the Knowledge.
3.6   Sorcerers cast spells from the arcane spell list.
0.2   Pick 1 spell per level + CHA mod to cast at -1 less HP.
6.0   Foci: at character creation decide an amount of HP per level, from 0-3, you will permanently sacrifice. You gain twice this amount as a daily separate pool of hit points to use for casting spells. If separated from your foci you may not use that pool.
Total: 10.4. The value from Foci is calculated if the player chooses "3".
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