D&D 5E announced. Really.

[Luís]

They are working on it right now and they want our feedback.

This is what I've posted:

Do you want to fix DnD?

My take on it:

1) Talk to people working on old clones, or at the very least read them, and see what made them so great.

See why people still like them, why they play them, why they still make new versions of the old editions.

Incorporate what you learn. Take a long, hard look at Pathfinder and see what they are doing.

2)Speaking of Pathfinder. One thing I love about it is that you get the core rules and you have everything. No need for this manual, and that handbook and this folio. With D&D you need at the least 2 different books. 3 if you don't want to look at the SRD for a monster for tonight's game. With Pf you are looking at 2, tops including a monster book.

Also, cut down on the splat books. People look at a new edition and think. Hooray, we're gonna have to spend money on the same books we already have just to update a few concepts. No. Too much money during these hard economic times. I'll stick with what I have or the basics.

Write the basics in such a way that they don't need the other books. All the important classes are there, all the races. No "let's leave this out so we can make a cheap buck later on".

BTW. Random tables. Metric megatons of random tables. Look at OSRIC. Your DMG section of the Core Rule Book should allow someone to create a whole world with a random table. I'm talking about mapping, type of civilization, races, monsters and their environment, random loot. Everything, especially if you can make it as roll-all-the dice sheets.

And speaking of loot, loot at the Diablo books you put out ages ago. You make a lot of random stuff and it suited your character's level pretty well given the mechanics of it. Take it into consideration.

3) Make it retro-compatible.

3.X has a wealth of material out there for it. Make it relevant. Maybe just add a few quick fixes to bring the material up to speed, whatever it takes. Look at consoles and their retro-compatibility.

4)Stop looking at video games. You don't need to simplify the game. Don't dumb it down for kids, make it clear. As a teacher I know there is a big difference and you should be aware of it.

Don't make the game into a video game set on a tabletop. Lose the figurine and map focus. Instead teach people how to use their imagination and if that fails give pointers on how to map your dungeons. Assign such tasks to the players and have the DM or mechanics reward such behavior.

Cards and whatnot are also something that should go away. The character has the powers, we don't need to have the cards. No one cares about them and we never collect them. If we wanted to play a dumbed down card game we'd be playing yu-gi-oh.

5) Make the game accessible without being dumbed down. This means that the game's mechanics should be well explained. You want a great way of doing this? At the end of the Character Creation chapter create two characters from scratch and explain how their bonus stats were calculated. Combat chapter? Use the same two characters to exemplify a fight where one melee attacks and the other casts some spell.

Detailed explanations and good examples go along way with new players and those should be your top priority. Old players will either buy the new edition or not regardless of what you do. Some will buy because they buy anything, others won't because they feel cheated once more. The relative few that will buy this depending on what you do won't actually matter compared to the new players coming in from reviews of the game.

6)Don't expect figurines to be a big hit. Especially not if you randomize them.

The best move you had was have packs of specific kinds of figurines. That was awesome as far as figurines go. I'm not against them but if they are to be used you might as well make it easy to get the one you one. We're not into playing random with what we get when we plop down money despite the fact that random is the nature of the game. That's just it. By that logic you could put the 3 core books in blank boxes and sell them at random hoping people buy them to get all three.

I should stop giving you ideas...

7)Get the game out. How? Remember the cartoon? Pick it up again. Finish it. Get that lost episode out there and at the very least put the characters through one episode's worth of adventure.

Not too much money in that to put it on TV or straight to DVD? Youtube for free.

Expose it. Even better, put two versions out there. One with the adventure, the other with a director's comment explaining how the actions would take place. Create character cheats for the, well, characters so people can see the workings of the game in effect. Something like the old Dragon's Lair tv show.

8)Your ego's? Leave those at the door. People play other games for a reason.

Your game is one of the best out there but not the best. RPG's are older than Gygax and Arneson's (mostly his) work.

Don't put this bit of history in and leave that one out because someone over at WoTC likes it. Don't leave a mechanic out because someone hates it while people love it.

9)Keep the D20. Don't go D6 or D100.

Just making sure. While kidding on this one the d20 system is pretty simple, don't fudge it.

Never bought a real TSR/WoTC product except the Diablo books (BTW, make more of those with DI3 coming out) but I've played them and a lot of other games. That says a lot of what I think of the original version. Fix half of what I said and I'll be first in line to buy it and play it.

Oh, and please translate the game into more languages.

[dymond]

and another reason PF is selling so well.. Don't be afraid to sell electronic copies of the books.. with the advent of eReaders and tablets, having those accessible electronically is awesome. In the PF game I'm in right now all 4 players and the DM have tablets (2 Ipads, 2 Ipad2s, one GTab(android based). A few own the books and the others can use the PFSRD to look up rules quickly.

[Crose87420]

Interesting tibit here...I've been looking to pick up a 3.5 DMG on the cheap, figuring under $20 easy, but nope. So even though Pathfinder is the SRD beast, D&D 3.5 isn't falling off the face of the Earth by any means. Pretty much the best price (with shipping) was around $24. Something about the 3.5/SRD game worked for a lot of people.

and another reason PF is selling so well.. Don't be afraid to sell electronic copies of the books..

I had completely forgotten about this, not having PDF's in this day-and-age is like ...well, it makes no sense at all.

[Luís]

Why don't you just get PF?

Well, this from someone, as I said, who never bought a real TSR/WoTC core book so I have no collection to build with them.

Quite happy with PF and I only have a pdf of it to run with the products I bought that will only work with 3.5 (exception being Diablo materials as I'm that kind of nut).

I would buy the 5th it was any good at being compatible with what came before it and self contained.

[Crose87420]

Why don't you just get PF?

Oh, shoulda clarified, my only reasons for picking up the 3.5 DMG are for the random dungeon stuff in the early part of the book. I could probably locate a, ahem, PDF of it but I want to be able to hold it in my hands. Expeditious Retreat put out a product called "1 on 1 Adventures, Unbound Adventures", where you can play solo games, and it uses that material from the DMG.

I should note I do use the Pathfinder Paths, adventures and Society Scenarios but with, of course, Microlite20. Woot woot!

[dymond]

my 3 suggestions were..

1. Ditch the Power Card crap..
2. PDF me
3. Ditch the insider..make something similar to the D20/PF SRD

[ravensron]

Happily ignored every "official" D&D house-rules-masquerading-as-new-edition for the last 30 years.  And, now, we've got M20.  Exactly why do we care about an upcoming "Fifth Edition"?

[dymond]

because this time it sounds like they 'get it'. They have found dictating the rules to people playing the game instead of caring for their feedback has put the 'World most Popular Roleplaying Game' in second place behind Pathfinder. And trust me 4e wasn't just 'house rules', they changed the core of the game completely, and not for the better.

[Crose87420]

I'm excited to see what they do with 5E, and why not? There's a chance for something really special, and that's exciting!

Plus, we have M20 so we stand nothing to lose...woot!

[dominowriting]

I'm almost more excited to see "Microlite 5e" than I am to see 5e itself.

[Crose87420]

I'm almost more excited to see "Microlite 5e" than I am to see 5e itself.

That may be right on. It's funny because I started collecting information on reducing 4E to a simpler system from various sources. I figured eventually I'd have enough to have a kind of M20 of 4E. I think I deleted that file the other day (when 5E was announced).

From what I gather 5E is supposed to be, or will be (might be?) modular allowing for a variety of game-play from simple to complicated.

[dymond]

The modular piece sounds good.. to make the game as simple or complex as you want it to be..

[Luís]

As long as modular doesn't mean "buy one book with 10 levels and 3 classes and races" and then you have to buy another book if you want the rest of the content I'm fine.

I'm gonna be honest. I'm downloading it as soon as it comes out. If it has what I want, I'll buy it if not it's getting rid of faster than you can say "DELETE".

[Crose87420]

As long as modular doesn't mean "buy one book with 10 levels and 3 classes and races" and then you have to buy another book if you want the rest of the content I'm fine.

I'm gonna be honest. I'm downloading it as soon as it comes out. If it has what I want, I'll buy it if not it's getting rid of faster than you can say "DELETE".

   I don't think you'll have to worry about too many content books yourself, I mean, if you're an M20 fan (as am I) you probably like something streamlined and whatever they come out with that's their most basic form of 5E (provided it doesn't suck) will be enough for both of us ... +/- maybe a book or two 

   When 4E came out I didn't buy the books (well, all the books, just the PHB) but I did get involved in a once a week/5 hour game...it was awful. I had played with the GM before (previous edition) and he was really brilliant at what he did but, man, I would wait like 20-30 minutes for my PC's next move. So I dropped out of that game....then D&D Essentials came and I was like, yeah!, here we go. I bought the Starter Kit, Players Compendium, whatever the DM guide is called and the Monster Vault. I ran through the Starter Kit's intro adventure (where you create a character ) and when I got done I had so much crap on my PC sheet that I just stopped right there. They just sit in my closet, literally, brand new and unused.

   I guess what that all boils down to is I just want to hold something in my hands that is new and exciting and that I really want to play (and is D&D). It's been awhile. I'm not going the retro route, great games and they had their merits, but that time is passed. (Not that I wouldn't play one now either!) 3.5, sure I liked it but it was still a pain the butt. I'm hoping we get something and when we read through it, it's like magic...Where we feel enthused and think; I can't put this down, I can't get enough of this and I want to play now!
   

[Empty]

*stumbles back onto M20 forums after several months*

*notices this*

...

Why are they making a new version so (relatively) soon after 4e?